"Notified of my posts", are the post police active here? Am I being watched? Give me a break!

For the record "wildcamper" is the owner of hallmaks' son, as was recently exposed on RV.net after years of his posting in the guise of "just-an-owner" which was in direct violation of that forums rules. Besides flames and troll like actions his postings also included personal attacks upon myself.

I have already been to Earthroamers' factory and am in fact considering them (among others) for a potential purchase in the future, so I have a pretty good understanding of their construction already. Theirs is a true composite structure which is fully insulated with built-in reinforced mounting points for interior items and requires no interior support framing. While your advertising makes it sound as if your campers are built the same way, it is my understanding that this is not so. AFAIK yours is merely a molded fiberglass exterior that simply surrounds a wooden framework. While this is a step up from a filon clad wooden camper (and a nice unit in its own right) it isn't in the same league as the ER and shouldn't be construed as such.

Am I mistaken? Please feel free to post pics that will correct me if I am wrong. I have been asking for just such pics since this was first mentioned on RV.net the better part of a year ago and have yet to see any. I have always wondered why hallmark's website doesn't already have pics prominently displayed of what would be a revolutionary first in the pop-up TC genre.

While your offer of lunch is tempting (though how cordial the time would be is debatable in light of your previous attacks against me), the $600+ in fuel it would take for the round trip from Southern California makes it a moot point. I also have no real desire to compare my heavily optioned/mod'ed camper, which I have never claimed to be a lightweight (though mine still doesn't even fully engage the stock overloads on my truck when loaded) against a base model hallmark. I have quite a bit of added weight on mine above what MOST buyers (of either brand) get, so it really would be a case of apples-to-oranges and totally worthless as any kind of comparison between the brands.

As I previously posted the whole truck thing is simply a matter of owner preference and not something dictated by which brand of camper is bought. There are owners of both of these brands carrying their campers on everything from a gas engined Toyota Tundra to a 1ton SRW diesel and enjoying it.

Hi Steve,

Offer still stands, I'll even split the gas cost with you and still buy you lunch. Oh, and here is a link to the pic's on my web site you were looking for. I'm sure you will learn a lot.

Link:
hallmark composite construction

By the way, what do you think Earthroamer screws their cabinets to? About the only difference is that Earthroamer builds a ship in a bottle and we build the bottle around the ship. Anyway, if you come out I will show you the whole process and you will have a better understanding of composite construction. Don’t worry about the options you have in your Outfitter, I have all those options and more in a showroom model. You can even see the heated and insulated tanks and all the new fancy skylights that are possible in carbon roof.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve_in_29:

Heated and insulated? Wasn't it you that posted on RV.net that the black tank of a hallmark was uninsulated and hung underneath the rear of the camper? This can not be compared to a fully enclosed heated basement for keeping things working smoothly in below freezing weather.

It was indeed me that posted that my 2004 does not have a heated and insulated black tank and yes it is below the floor in the rear tucked inside the camper body.(I was inquiring about skirting that is used on fifth wheel trailers)This position of the tank supports the FACT that a hallmark has a much lower center of gravity and is just one of the many reasons why a hallmark has a lower center of gravity as I have pointed out before. The 2008 models have tanks that are truly insulated and plumed with a heating vent. So, like I said, no advantage there (Even though the thousands of hallmark’s sold before this change have been enjoying four season winter camping without a problem anyway.) So it would seem your knowledge and reasoning is out of date as well.

quote:

Your knowledge of Outfitter construction is out of date. Their campers currently use a one piece fiberglass insert in the cabover (to include the underbed storage) and the portion of lower tub that used to be made of wood is now a reinforced fiberglass (excuse me..composite) piece. About the only wood still used in an Outfitter is in the cabinets.

So Outfitter does not use wood paneling in their walls, and they glue their Filon siding directly to the aluminum sticks? Wouldnt delamination would spread like wild fire, at least I would hope they would use a sub strait, moisture and temperature transfer through the aluminum sticks has to be horrific. Bigger camper with two floors, No composite walls, equals more wood in the Outfitter, although at least Outfitter removed some of the wood with their new bunk.

quote:

Yes an Outfitter is going to weigh a little more then a hallmark due to its slightly larger size but 500lbs is a BIG stretch since the materials used to construct 4" of extra sidewall and a extra floor weigh NO WHERE near that much. I could actually lift all of them and I am not exactly the "Incredible Hulk". Now if you are comparing the smallest/lightest hallmark against the largest Outfitter then the 500lb figure might be closer to accurate.

So it is conceded that indeed an Outfitter weighs more than a hallmark. I believe that Brian, the owner of Outfitter even suggested a “Pepsi Challenge” on RV.net. Did this challenge take place? I have seen a picture at the new Hallmark show room of an Outfitter Apex 9 on the scale coming in at just over 3000lbs. and a 9.6’ foot Okanagan hardside on the scale coming in at just over 3200lbs. and a hallmark Cuchara 9.5’ foot weighing in at just over 2300lbs.

quote:

No need to distort the facts, there are plenty of Outfitter owners that carry their camper just fine with a gas engine truck (even Toyotas) just like there are hallmark owners with diesel trucks. So the gas/diesel thing is really a moot point and simply owner preference. I have an F350 since I didn't want to do ANY suspension mods to be able to carry the load (plus tow 7000+lbs of trailer and Bronco)

Steve didnt you install F550 coils on your truck? Is that not a suspension mod?

quote:

Most expensive does NOT always go hand-in-hand with best. Interesting that you assert the cost premium of the hallmark is due to the materials used in construction, since hallmarks were costing more even when they were simply stick built from wood. Even back in 2004 (WELL before any composites (?) or carbon fiber) when I priced them, a hallmark cost more then an Outfitter

You get what you pay for Steve, even when you try to tell yourself that it isn’t true. Hallmark has always built the best pop-up available and my 2004 is a testament to this. As I have stated before-Customer service is very important to me- Hallmark services what they sell- even my 2004.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcamper:
Hi Steve,

Offer still stands, I'll even split the gas cost with you and still buy you lunch. Oh, and here is a link to the pic's on my web site you were looking for. I'm sure you will learn a lot.

Link:
hallmark composite construction

Well unfortunately I am still a working stiff so besides the fuel there is also the week off from work I would need to do this that I couldn't use for a more enjoyable vacation.

The pics don't really help your case. They clearly show that while it might be wood reinforced in some locations, the outer wall is still simply a fiberglass shell as I have been stating and a long way from the fully self supporting structure of the ER.

As I have said before your fiberglass wall is nice but it is misleading of your advertising to let people think it is the same as the much more expensive ER's.

quote:

Originally posted by wildcamper:
By the way, what do you think Earthroamer screws their cabinets to? About the only difference is that Earthroamer builds a ship in a bottle and we build the bottle around the ship. Anyway, if you come out I will show you the whole process and you will have a better understanding of composite construction. Don’t worry about the options you have in your Outfitter, I have all those options and more in a showroom model. You can even see the heated and insulated tanks and all the new fancy skylights that are possible in carbon roof.

The ER's composite walls are in fact a fully self supporting structure with the reinforced mounting points of interior items encased within it. While yours (no matter how you try to spin it) are really nothing more then an old-school, wooden-stick wall camper with a nice fiberglass outer covering.

Somehow I doubt that you have a similarly-equipped camper in stock that has all the features of mine. Care to compare options line by line?

As for your insulated and duct-heated holding tanks why doesn't your site give any explanation of them?

A "fancy skylight" isn't something that you can only get with a carbon fiber roof and isn't even a "new" feature. They have been incorporated in other brands roofs (both wood and aluminum) for many years.

Steve, I can argue with you till the cows come home. And as much as you would like a earthroamer not be like a hallmark, the fact still remains that hallmark builds the most technologically advanced pop-up on the market.

Offer still stands. I look forward to meeting you at some point and teaching you the finer things to look for in RV construction.

Go ahead Steve, give me an options list and I will match it and add. Should be interesting.

Yes, thank you for pointing out the Heki vent, NO it is not new, and no it has not been done on a soft side pop-up before. It is usually installed on hard side campers. Find me a picture besides mine.

quote:

Originally posted by Trails2004:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve_in_29:

Heated and insulated? Wasn't it you that posted on RV.net that the black tank of a hallmark was uninsulated and hung underneath the rear of the camper? This can not be compared to a fully enclosed heated basement for keeping things working smoothly in below freezing weather.

It was indeed me that posted that my 2004 does not have a heated and insulated black tank and yes it is below the floor in the rear tucked inside the camper body.(I was inquiring about skirting that is used on fifth wheel trailers)This position of the tank supports the FACT that a hallmark has a much lower center of gravity and is just one of the many reasons why a hallmark has a lower center of gravity as I have pointed out before. The 2008 models have tanks that are truly insulated and plumed with a heating vent. So, like I said, no advantage there (Even though the thousands of hallmark’s sold before this change have been enjoying four season winter camping without a problem anyway.) So it would seem your knowledge and reasoning is out of date as well.

I might be but not by as much (or as misleading) as you were. It seems that hallmark is pretty shy about posting all their current upgrades to their site for people (customers) to see.

quote:

Originally posted by Trails2004:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve_in_29:
Your knowledge of Outfitter construction is out of date. Their campers currently use a one piece fiberglass insert in the cabover (to include the underbed storage) and the portion of lower tub that used to be made of wood is now a reinforced fiberglass (excuse me..composite) piece. About the only wood still used in an Outfitter is in the cabinets.

So Outfitter does not use wood paneling in their walls, and they glue their Filon siding directly to the aluminum sticks? Wouldnt delamination would spread like wild fire, at least I would hope they would use a sub strait, moisture and temperature transfer through the aluminum sticks has to be horrific. Bigger camper with two floors, No composite walls, equals more wood in the Outfitter, although at least Outfitter removed some of the wood with their new bunk.

I was referring to wood as a structural member. Which unlike hallmark, Outfitter has pretty much succeeded in eliminating. Last I checked (and unless someone has changed the rules of physics) aluminum allows NO moisture penetration. Your attempt at a misleading statement is like the one on hallmarks site touting their non-use of glue in their construction but the fact of the matter is that they use more "glue" then almost any camper since those fiberglass panels are saturated with "glue" and if done improperly are subject to delamination as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Trails2004:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve_in_29:
Yes an Outfitter is going to weigh a little more then a hallmark due to its slightly larger size but 500lbs is a BIG stretch since the materials used to construct 4" of extra sidewall and a extra floor weigh NO WHERE near that much. I could actually lift all of them and I am not exactly the "Incredible Hulk". Now if you are comparing the smallest/lightest hallmark against the largest Outfitter then the 500lb figure might be closer to accurate.

So it is conceded that indeed an Outfitter weighs more than a hallmark. I believe that Brian, the owner of Outfitter even suggested a “Pepsi Challenge” on RV.net. Did this challenge take place? I have seen a picture at the new Hallmark show room of an Outfitter Apex 9 on the scale coming in at just over 3000lbs. and a 9.6’ foot Okanagan hardside on the scale coming in at just over 3200lbs. and a hallmark Cuchara 9.5’ foot weighing in at just over 2300lbs.

Those pictures, while making for a nice sales tool, are in reality totally meaningless, since there is no way to know what options (if any) were installed in those campers. I believe the point Brian was trying to make about weight with the Pepsi challenge (which I notice hallmark didn't take him up on) was that despite hallmarks claims either brand is within a couple of hundred pounds of each other when optioned the same. As for myself, I have never claimed my Outfitter was "light", I simply hold that it is "lighter" and has a lower COG then a comparably equipped/optioned hardside would be. I do feel the weight given for the above Outfitter is suspect since (while I never weighed mine) someone I know has weighed their similar model when fully loaded for a trip and including themselves, the total load on their truck was 3500lbs. Since it is a good rule of thumb that you will add approx 1000lbs to a camper when ready-to-go it would seem that the correct dry weight would be in the 2500lb range for a well optioned Apex. So if the figures are correct a 200lb difference is pretty much a moot point, since it won't allow a smaller truck or require a larger truck for one-vs-the-other. By the way, it's an Apex 9.5.

*** On edit - I rechecked the weight the other owner listed and it was 3100lbs not 3500lbs, giving a revised ballpark figure of 2100lbs dry ******

quote:

Originally posted by Trails2004:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve_in_29:
No need to distort the facts, there are plenty of Outfitter owners that carry their camper just fine with a gas engine truck (even Toyotas) just like there are hallmark owners with diesel trucks. So the gas/diesel thing is really a moot point and simply owner preference. I have an F350 since I didn't want to do ANY suspension mods to be able to carry the load (plus tow 7000+lbs of trailer and Bronco)

Steve didnt you install F550 coils on your truck? Is that not a suspension mod?

The F550 coils are on the front of my truck and have nothing to do with supporting the campers load. They were installed to support the 300+lbs extra that my bumper/winch combo adds there.

quote:

Originally posted by Trails2004:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve_in_29:
Most expensive does NOT always go hand-in-hand with best. Interesting that you assert the cost premium of the hallmark is due to the materials used in construction, since hallmarks were costing more even when they were simply stick built from wood. Even back in 2004 (WELL before any composites (?) or carbon fiber) when I priced them, a hallmark cost more then an Outfitter

You get what you pay for Steve, even when you try to tell yourself that it isn’t true. Hallmark has always built the best pop-up available and my 2004 is a testament to this. As I have stated before-Customer service is very important to me- Hallmark services what they sell- even my 2004.

Well I glad you think your money was well spent (though I notice you didn't like them enough to pay that new price penalty) but it seems to me that the "best pop-up available" would have been built with more care, so that the rubber roof wasn't bubbling up already at only 3 years old (as you yourself post here). Personally I wouldn't go bragging that my 3 yo camper (with a roof problem) was a testament to hallmark's greatness if I was you. Outfitter puts in writing one of the best warranties in the business, with a lifetime structural warranty to the original owner. They will also help subsequent owners with problems if any come up, so despite your trying to make it seem as if only hallmark supports their product, Outfitter owners (new AND used) have no problems getting service of any kind.

Again I suggest that hallmark try selling their campers on their own merits and leave the sleazy/misleading tactics to the politicians. A web site, minus the misleading innuendo, that CLEARLY shows the construction details and tank locations would be a good step in this direction and allow potential customers to make up their own minds as to which they prefer.

**edited for formating

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Steve_in_29,

I will jaw with you more tommorrow, but one mod you post that is not possible. Is the Digital thermostat that can control a polar cub. Not possible, better think about this statement.

Everything else, not a problem and in stock. Sands the two 20lb. tanks.

quote:

2007 Outfitter Apex 9.5
Extended cabover bed (full queen)
Tundra 12VDC fridge with internal venting (no exterior vents)
Stove/oven
20K furnace
Polar Cub A/C, w/heat strip
Atwood XT 6gal water heater (gas/electric)
Nature Pure water filter
Shureflo Extreme series Smart Sensor water pump
Wall mounted digital thermostat, controlling furnace,A/C,heat strip
(2) 20lb LP tanks on slide out tray (replaced stock single 40lb tank)
Custom LP cabinet with drawer and pantry added
Cassette toilet (plumbed to TC water supply)
Extra outside storage compartment
Outside shower
Water inlets behind locking door
270W of solar
Solar Boost 2000e controller
Xantrex Prosine 2KW inverter
(4) Lifeline AGM batteries
10' side crank out awning
Will get rear awning (new style) once development is finalized
(2) per side scare lights
(2) rear porch lights
Tan Weblon (heavier duty) interior softwall
Oversized overhead cabinet on drivers side
Additional overhead cabinet on pass side
(2) Shureflo Platinum Series roof vents
Roof storage pod
Electric jacks (mounted 4" higher) w/6" leg extensions for added off-road
clearance
Microwave
40gal water tank
Electric lift for roof
Extra drawers instead of stereo
Removable shore power cord
Roof racks
Extra 120V/12V power outlets throughout TC
(2) Honda 2000i's w/homemade parallel cord

Semper Fi
2007 F350 4x4 SRW
2007 Outfitter Apex 9.5
Posts: 9 | Registered: December 01, 2007

Please, lets talk truth and not fiction. Whole reason I have to respond.

I have been called many things but never a politican- That is an interesting choice of words- for which I have seen you use before.

I purchased a 2004 model because -I can- frankly it should not concern you what year model I purchase. I sleep very well at night- with my choice.

Can you provide a similar customer service experience? It is really nice to know that Hallmark will stand behind it's work even if you are not the original owner.

I do not fault anyone or any manufacture for problems with a glue-on rubber roof- as this is inherent to the design and application (glue does not last forever and neither does rubber) that is why they make repair kits and roof coating.

I'm a firm believer in Hallmark as they have treated me with diginty and respect. I understand that you are firm supporter and a person who is willing (and perhaps compensated?) to provide your camper as a model for potential customers in California. It also is interesting that Mr. Ward recently commented in an interview with TCM's (Truck Camper Magazine) Gordon White last August

"While I talked to Bob in the front office later in the day, a potential customer called from California. Bob gave him the name and phone number of a nearby Outfitter owner for the potential customer to visit. Bob then told me that this Outfitter owner had sold about eighty Outfitters over the years."...

Here is a link for the complete interview
http://www.truckcampermagazine.com/index.php?option=com...iew&id=244&Itemid=34


I'm not really sure you should throw stones-